Kien Hang is a UCL medical student. He is currently undertaking an MSc in Computer Science and is a recipient of the Professor Sir Malcolm Grant Postgraduate Scholarship, awarded to individuals who show leadership potential. He talks to us about his endeavours in the tech and medtech fields, working with the Royal College of Surgeons (RCS), NHSX and consultancy firm Hardian Health, and what it took to get him there.
Y: In your own words, how would you describe yourself?
K: My name is Kien, I am a master’s computer science student. I was a medic, I’ve done 5 years of medicine at UCL and now I’m taking a gap year to take the master’s before I do my final year of medicine.
Y: What made you want to do that this year?
K: All sorts of reasons, but the crux of it was to be able to technically skill up and explore what’s outside of medicine. A lot of people are put off medicine, and one thing you can do during your medical school career is take some time out and build your CV, so you are ready to go into the working field. So if you aren’t enjoying your career as a doctor, or looking for other careers, at least you’ve had that insight.
Y: How did you find the transition from medicine to computer science?
K: Most medical schools should be supportive, but you need to be able to justify it. I had already intercalated but taking a year out was quite normal for medical students. I hadn’t had any programming experience, and I’m not of a technical background so taking the degree was a way for me to explore myself in that aspect.
Y: What got you into tech to begin with?
K: Going back to first, second year, everyone was interested in tech, medtech too. That was my first insight. I wasn’t really sure what medtech or tech was, but I thought if I’m not enjoying medicine, I can go into medtech. Naïve as it sounds, that was my mindset going into it!
My first step was volunteering for the GIANT health conference. It gave me an insight into clinicians doing more than medicine, I made a few networks there and going on from that I signed myself up for more surgical technology opportunities.
I was involved in a lot of research around surgical tech, and then I transitioned more towards health tech. Looking at regulations over a few months over the summer at Hardian Health, we were looking at how we get medtech to the market, and what exactly is medtech. I was involved with a Kickstart incubator team, 6 weeks of just developing an idea, tech-related, but going as a founder more than an individual moving into the industry.
Now moving into the master’s, focusing on purely tech. This is where my career is most likely to head towards.
Y: it sounds like you’re really leaning more into the tech side.
K: It’s good to have exposure to all sides of tech, and having a better understanding of what working in tech actually entails. I don’t like to claim that I do computer science without actually doing what computer scientists do and doing what the technical roles actually involve.
It’s all about insight for me, it’s what led me to the master’s and what led me to make some difficult decisions. Questions of, what do I know, what can I gain from these experiences? Each of these does its purpose in a different way, which led me down this journey. If I’ll go into medtech, or do something else, I don’t have a clue!
Y: I know you did some work with the Royal College of Surgeons (RCS) and augmented reality – how do get into that? Was this something you pioneered or something you jumped on board with?
K: As part of the research group, we had looked at virtual reality before, but more low-fidelity stuff, like telesurgery and telementoring for medical students. Much of that experience was research – how can we design that trial and how can we set up a study for students to be a part of? I got involved because I had a camera, and I was literally shooting random footage, photography, and they were looking for someone to shoot all their surgical procedures. I was part of the initial study they used virtual tech for, and it was a big success.
Then some more studies, involving robotic surgery, how can we enhance fellowship training with robotics surgery, but what led me towards augmented reality is that I led a conference two years before, and I made it focused on surgical technology. A trial got great feedback from students there, now we are launching an RCT with potential integration into medical student studies.
Y: What were the most important skills you used?
K: Having to run a team, organise a team, those skills can be difficult when you are quite junior. As a medical student, you are speaking to surgeons, consultants who are twice your age and amount of experience, but when it came to negotiating stakeholders and being able to speak to RCS, having to get them on board with your idea, it’s difficult to do. Takes some experience and leadership skills which you develop on the spot really!
Y: Working with people older than you, how did you find the skills different?
K: Medical students often box themselves, and it’s quite hard to argue against the fact we are the youngest, young in careers. But in tech, I’ve found that when you carry a technical skill no one can argue with that. If you bring something to the team that no one else can, that speaks for itself. One of the reasons I did take the master’s, and I encourage other people to think about, is thinking about skilling up, skills that are inarguable and require experience and skills to do. You can’t necessarily build that within medical school, especially if you’re not involved in stuff outside medical school.
With the technical stuff, of course you have junior technical people, but when it comes to the technical team, which is of a few or limited number, you can often see technical value to what you bring. It just encourages people to take up some new skills, skill up on something you can’t normally do.
Y: This year sounds like a good year for you to bring those inarguable skills. How will you build on those skills?
K: It’s a weird transition point where I’m not really sure. Whether you work in tech, medtech or medicine, having these skills are skills that people need outside of that. If you do a research project, you need someone to do the graphics or record something video-based, so some of these skills you can’t necessarily fault. So, it keeps your doors open. If it’s a route you go down doing something non-medicine or medicine-related, having these skills is always in your favour.
Y: What would you advise any medical student who were interested in opening the door to tech?
K: Establish first what kind of role you want to fall in, there are a lot of different types, some that require technical skills and some that don’t. For example, project management. These roles aren’t technical unless you work in a tech company. The social media side, or copywriting, or being on the face of a tech startup – these are roles you can fulfil without those skills. Work out first what roles you want and what suits you best.
Insight into these areas – I took an internship over the summer, a sacrifice I was willing to make as long as I knew by the end of it what I wanted to do and where I wanted to end up. Having that experience is always helpful for the CV, if applying for certain roles. So many other things you can do outside of that – going to conferences and networking, speaking to individuals, who soon enough will recognise your interest and invite you for more. You might find out that some roles you would hate, but that’s a good thing – be adventurous about choosing roles and being in places.
Y: Were there any difficult lessons learnt?
K: Definitely, saying no to opportunities that came by. Although it looks good on paper, to be a medical lead for a startup or surgical lead for a research group, it’s important to question if it’s right for you. A lot of these questions came up on my intercalated surgical BSc, because I thought I wanted to be a surgeon, and I thought surgical technology would be interesting to get into, not realising that the pioneering of surgical technology is mainly consultant-led, as it should be.
But I think making sure that the things you make, you’re actually certain with. That’s not the value you can see yourself but what the value entails – it might be that you have to talk to 10 people to find out what the value entails – or speak to people who have been in that role. All these roles do sound fancy, but you need to get into what skills are you going to build in this experience, and how will they further your career.
Y: Were you supported in medical school to seek out these opportunities?
I want to say yes, but there isn’t a single experience I can say that supported my decision. Doing the master’s was mainly influenced by people in the year above me, who took a step out of medical school to do that. It’s a decision you have to make on your own. Reflecting on my experience as a clinical student – working through the pandemic, you weren’t exposed to anything other than medicine. At the end of it, you reflect, what do I actually enjoy about medicine and what could I potentially spend a future in?
It’s not a decision encouraged as much as I think it should be. It’s not a decision that is even spoken about – it’s very taboo to say that you want to work in medtech, people think you want to go for the money or the popularity. What the reality is that lots of medtech is hardcore research based. I like to say that the medtech that will last and change the way we practice in hospitals are the ones with actual evidence behind them. If you can convince the NHS to invest in your medtech company, you need evidence and that’s very difficult. Having the experience and knowing what these companies are actually doing is beneficial for medical students.
Y: Did you feel there was backlash or criticism in choosing a route that means that you potentially won’t work in the NHS?
K: Yes, but if you’re honest with yourself, and think yes, this is really what you want, then no one can judge or decide for you.
I’m on the other side now, having made these decisions, and there wasn’t really anyone I could turn to ask if I was going down the right route. There comes a point where you think OK, I’ve experienced either the bad side of medicine, or the good side of non-medicine, and often that’s enough to trigger you to take on more. It’s hard when you’re in medical school and surrounded by non-medics, it’s all you live and breathe it’s not easy to do.
Y: Can you name any other role models who helped you along that way and who were they?
K: Mostly medical students who had transitioned into tech. Firstly, Abdel Mahmoud and his wife Yasmin Abedin, both have transitioned and taken the master’s I’m taking. I’m in contact with them quite a lot, he has been a big inspiration in that if you aren’t enjoying medical school or the prospect of being a doctor there are ways you can take yourself out of that.
Ivan Beckley is someone I have always looked up to, these guys have paved the way to say that you don’t have to do medical school and medicine and become a doctor, that there are so many avenues to go down. People like Imran Mahmud who are ex-clinicians, who produce content on why should doctors and medical students look into other careers, and how to make that transition which isn’t easy. It’s mostly clinicians who have been brave enough to make the change themselves, who talk on podcasts and make content about it. Having someone who has gone through it before really helps.
Y: At what point did you decide you wanted to go on this path?
K: At the end of fourth year (out of six years on UCL medicine). That was my first clinical year, running through the pandemic. I really respect everyone working in the NHS, but I felt that at some point I had to prioritise myself and my mental health over things I have seen on the wards. I knew there was something I wanted to look into, and I saw people in years above who had done it through a master’s or doing it after practising as a doctor.
I applied and didn’t think much about it. I wanted to take the lowest risk possible. My master’s is a gap year and I haven’t left medical school – there’s no harm in doing it. When I applied for scholarships, I said that if I didn’t get any, then I would simply continue and graduate as a doctor. At the time I was planning to take a year out anyway.
I got a scholarship to cover my master’s, so for me taking that opportunity made a lot of sense. If you can’t go for a master’s, take an internship. If you can’t take an internship, take a spring week. In medical school there comes a point where you realise that if you’re interested in other roles, you’re not ready yet. That’s a struggle that lots of doctors and medical students reach out with.
Y: Did you struggle to get our portfolio up to scratch?
K: Yes, and I still feel it now. When you apply for roles or internships, you have to have enough on your CV. That why a lot of different roles are more catered for people from a medical background. Non-technical roles like project management don’t necessarily involve the tech background. If you go for something technical, they will ask you immediately what you’ve done or worked on in the last few years and it’s quite hard when you are up against ppl who graduated with a full list of achievements and internships.
Y: How would you advise people to get into those kinds of roles?
K: I’ve written an article on how I got my first internship, following my experience with NHSX. NHSX was a short internship between my first and second year of uni, when I was just building on one of the booking systems. I came by that from an email in my inbox. I applied for it, not expecting much and I got it. I spent a few weeks working on that problem, but I needed something else quite solid on my CV.
That’s why I decided to spend my summer between my fifth year and master’s at Hardian Health, a health tech regulations company. I was emailing places, cold-emailing, with no connections. I knew there were companies out there in the past that I knew had done the work I was interested in but had no internship roles and I didn’t have a CV that fit. I thought about what company was big enough that I would learn something, but small enough that I didn’t have to fight against 10 people for the same role.
Cold-emailing health tech startups was how I landed that internship, and that was simply on LinkedIn, reaching out to a bunch of different people and getting a bunch of ‘no’ until eventually one person said yes. I did that for a month straight after my exams. When you land one, you can land two, and three, and it gets easier after that. The first way that students can get internships is by signing up and start messaging these people.
I think doctors respect the fact that students are ambitious: show that you’re keen, and want to get your hands dirty, and work on whatever on they’re doing. Just get yourself out there somehow, and one person will be happy enough to take you under your wing.
Y: What did your associate consultant intern role at Hardian Health entail?
K: It is completely non-technical, but a lot of consulting on projects and involving yourself into the research behind these health tech companies. To get health tech onto the market is very complex and laborious process which requires at least one or two years of work. A lot of these companies come to Hardian having done pre-seed or seed funding.
For Hardian it was mainly AI related projects. These companies are coming to Hardian saying we want the regulations, and we want your help. They’ve got the technical ability and sometimes the clinical background, but a lot of the experience lacks the regulation and understanding what you need to get your product onto the market.
As an intern you are involved with a lot of different calls, founders of the companies who are raising millions, and you try to play your part but most of your experience is just to learn and understand this side of medicine, health tech, industry and understand how things go. You’re not going to be moving on something incredible but you’re working on the small projects and understanding after one, two months that this is what the industry is like. The role isn’t anything technical but it taught me a lot about what the health tech market looks like and where it’s going to go.
Y: How did you actually learn the technical skills of coding?
K: At the first hackathon I went to I had no coding experience, and I was quite intimidated to be part of the team. But I knew that I could at least make nice diagrams! The one thing that I walked into that project knowing, was how to make a good presentation. From there, we had technical people but I had the medical background: whatever project we work on, I can do a literature review and make it look nice. We ended up winning that hackathon – the project was a small app to track the mental health of mothers with postpartum depression.
When the second project came by, I had experience of what it meant to be a project manager but not yet what it was like on the technical side. Since, I have done a few intro courses to Python, found resources on YouTube, etc.
That first role was a technical project – if you hadn’t done coding, then you couldn’t build a project. Fortunately, on that side there were people very good at coding. One took me under her wing through the whole hackathon, despite me not being able to code much myself. The only way that I learnt proper coding was being on a project.
Regardless of how bad I was at coding, the person next to me was better! Things like, this how you use GitHub, to more complex stuff, like bootstrapping and how you build applications. These were taught to me on the day and on those projects. That’s where I’m at now, slightly more comfortable with my coding (still not amazing!) but we are a team, and there will be someone who is good, and someone who is less good – you adapt.
With coding, you need to learn the syntax – understand the programming language and then start moving onto projects. If you can’t join a project, force yourself to start a project. Following exercises, answering questions, isn’t what the crux of coding is about – it’s about building. It’s very cool when you start seeing your output; projects were the one way I could see output.
Y: Finally, any resources for people reading this who want to get into your shoes?
K: Firstly, ThatMedicNetwork and their podcast! Listening to these podcasts, taking some information, and doing your own research. The Scrubbed in Show, Big Picture Medicine too.
Also, getting on LinkedIn – start a LinkedIn Premium and start cold-emailing. Asking for conversations – can you answer some questions, I’m interested in your journey, a lot of people will reply surprisingly. When I was thinking about the master’s, I asked five, ten people. Getting people who are interesting and taking them aside and keeping a database of what they share with you is how you build your network. That’s what I recommend!
MedicDiaries: Melissa Torkizadeh, Consulting Intern/> 
